Open Letter to Jill Filopovic
Jill:
First, thank you for posting. I was one of the many people who assumed that your silence equalled assent; not only because of your (granted, years ago) public affirmations of affection/support for Hugo (and while I say this, remember that I noted that he had a certain visible absence after 2008)….but because of experiences throughout my life. In my experience, silence does equal assent. The power to ignore others is a very effective means for shutting them down. I did not expect a lengthy response, but just a short timely one. I was unaware of your health struggles and I do empathize—I also have a health challenge (hypothyroidism…..and geez, don’t get me started. I could rant for days on the general unresponsiveness of physicians to women, and the specific difficulty of trying to negotiate the healthcare system as an over-40 working class woman) and have personal knowledge of trying to budget one’s energy during conflicting demands. I do not intend to add to your stress level (trust, 2011 sucked for me too); I only want to speak to you woman-to-woman, as a former guest blogger on Feministe and someone who has been a part of the commentariat damn near since its inception…back when it was still Lauren’s gig.
I want to speak to you on some of the overall dynamics I’m witnessing on these recent posts and comment threads. From my perspective, there is an almost corporate-style mode of abdication of responsibility. The fact that Feministe has multiple staff bloggers will necessarily result in this default in the absence of a formal structure of consensus among the bloggers and in the absence of a mission statement. It seems to me that Feministe vacillates between being a pop-culture entertainment blog; an informative source for international news relating to women and feminism; a galvanizing instrument for political action; and a “LiveJournal”-style space for venting. Although there is a comments policy, there isn’t a declared mission statement of….goals, dreams, boundaries of any sort on what Feministe is or wants to be; nor is there a transparent description or process of how conflict within the community will be resolved. For that matter, there isn’t a definition of the community—does it refer solely to the staff bloggers, or to the commentariat as well?
This is very alienating to me as a labor unionist, as I come from a tradition that has very clear statements on who and what we are, and clear boundaries on process, policy, and conflict resolution. The stock answer in the blogosphere at large is a mercantile one—”if you don’t like what we’re selling, take your business elsewhere.” I don’t necessarily perceive this to be the attitude of Feministe, but strongly feel that the absence of a mission statement and attendant processes contributes to the hostile dynamics in the comment section.
But back to the “corporate style” as I call it, which I see very frequently in the comment section and is clearly evident in the recent threads: an ahistoricity, a blurring of boundaries during controversy or conflict, an assertion of “objectivity”, “rationality” and dismissal of emotion (particularly anger)….these are all concepts essential to the construction of whiteness as a political identity (which is to say, a means of teaching the people who are taught they are white, how to be “white”. I say this because I’ve been getting a whole lot of folks dropping by this blog lately since I was linked on Maya’s post at Alas, and I want to be crystal-clear to people unfamiliar with the term “white” as referring to anything other than light skin. I’m talking about the “whitewashing” of people of European descent; the assimilation into a “whiteness” that exists solely in opposition to people of color and other colonized persons). Even if the overt hostility of the comment section were abated, the affirmation of the ways and means of middle-class white communication are very uninviting (to say the least).
When I read statements like: (3) Feministe does have many contributors, and our views on the Hugo situation are not identical. Caperton’s post was a very good one and I agree with it, but we are not a monolith, and the various individuals who contribute here have wide-ranging opinions on the whole situation and the best response.”…I’ll be blunt. It sounds like fence-sitting to me. Trying to play both sides against the middle, in the face of a conflict that necessarily will alienate one side or the other. Some disagreements can reach a valid compromise, one that will satisfy all parties. This is not one of them. Again, this lack of clarity is a weakness of this blog.
What I find even more frustrating are statements (both in your original post and in the comment section) that use descriptors/analogies of violence for nonviolent acts of protest and resistance—even the merely verbal. This is another trope of whiteness; dismissing the perspective of those in resistance and denigrating/misrepresenting opponents. Note that this process tends not to call out opposition by name, but reduces us to a nameless, faceless “mob”. This, in the midst of a culture that values and respects individualism while standing in vehement opposition to any and all forms of collectivism and organized community. That this dynamic remains unquestioned and unacknowledged on a feminist blog is an egregious oversight, and perpetuates the status quo of “leaders first, then followers”. Whatever else feminism may be about, if it practices an employer/employee relationship between its visible spokespersons and less-visible adherents, it’s about nothing. I’m not looking for more feudalism in my political involvement, and I’m not alone.
One of the critiques I read on tumblr (and if the person in question gives me permission, I will link her own words; I will not do so without her explicit permission as she has deliberately left the Feministe scene) outlined the typical timeline of feminist blog controversy thusly: first, someone would very delicately, very diplomatically reveal that there was an institutional problem. Said problem would be quoted, described, linked to, and otherwise have its boundaries clearly delineated. Many times, possible and probable solutions to its resolution would be included. But then! The response would be one of redirecting into the personal—a list of reasons why This Person (who either was responsible for the original problem, or who was in a position to mitigate or otherwise alleviate/correct said problem) couldn’t do so. And finally, a further redirection into how This Problem is so much larger than one person, and a reassertion that The Problem has nebulous boundaries that can’t be broken down into more manageable parts for its solution.
And that’s a pattern that we see, time and time again. To reiterate, this perpetuates the standard relationship of feminist leadership to everyday feminists as one of hierarchy, with the leaders having the say. It illustrates why so many women for whom having no say is a perpetual part of life are profoundly alienated from feminist movement and do not identify as feminists.
From your most recent post, one of the most maddening statements to me was:
I am also concerned about the precedent this sets. I think that most of the critiques of Hugo are fair, as are the concerns about a former abuser rising to a level of prominence in feminist spaces — especially given his ongoing issues with women of color and his treatment of younger women. But the reality of the feminist internet is that there is a corner of it that plays the take-down game for sport, and that sees any mistake or imperfection or disagreement as evidence that one is Bad For Feminism and should be permanently sidelined. It’s destructive. It’s something I believe is incredibly bad for feminism as a movement and as an idea, and that’s bad for community-building, and that serves to silence more people than it empowers……I frankly don’t trust a group of people on the internet to always choose the right person from whom to demand blood. Which, again, isn’t to say that I think the focus on Hugo here is misdirected. It is to say that I have a real hesitance to participate, because I dislike take-down culture generally and because I’m not convinced that next time we’ll all be setting our sights on a worthy target.
This hit me like a slap in the face. I found it profoundly dismissive of the very vocal critiques made in the first apologia, during Hugo’s white-knighting, and dismissive of the use of the power of organized, nonviolent feminist resistance via blogging. I don’t recall you being upset when this form of organized resistance was used for your benefit. I don’t recall your opposition when this was used to change Michael Moore’s mind. Why now? Because y’know…..I was around when none other than Salon magazine mustered forces against Blackamazon for daring to say, on her tiny corner of the internet, “Fuck Seal Press”.
It’s always been radical to fight against the status quo; those in power want to keep it, to themselves, and will use any and all means at their disposal to do so. But you know what else is radical? SOLIDARITY. Standing in solidarity with others for justice. Even if/when it doesn’t directly benefit you. Even if doing so causes you to fall from grace with power. Even when acting in solidarity is risky. It is profoundly, unequivocally radical.
Remember my mention of whiteness? One of the things a white supremacist society must continually teach and enforce is that white people must never identify with nonwhite people. Separatism—physical if possible, but always mental. There are various ways and means of getting this message across, but as a very visible person in the feminist movement, surely you must have considered the impact of what your solidarity could do. The message it could send to other white feminists. Perhaps that explains your reluctance. In your post, in your many responses of apologia through the years, I note that you seem to both deny your (considerable) power and express discomfort with wielding it. That really slays me. Feministe is in the big leagues. I’ve got a copy of The Nation magazine at home that featured Feministe on the cover (along with several other heavy-hitters in the left-leaning sphere); I still use it for bragging rights (“wouldja believe they asked me to guest blog?! See! I don’t just mouth off, I’m good at it!). Feministe is a recognized presence in the left, and one that is remembered for standing in feminist opposition to professional male bloggers and journalists who routinely ignored women’s voices and denied our online presence (hence, the Feministe byline, “in defense of the sanctimonious women’s studies set”).
You have the opportunity to stand in solidarity. Or not. But either way, it speaks to where your alliances lay. There isn’t any middle ground.
Please understand—people look to a definitive response from you because your voice carries. It carries a hell of a lot farther in movement feminism than mine ever will. Labor union women still aren’t included in standard versions of feminist history; the work of my union comaris–as is mine–is seen as mere selfish struggle; an individual quest for better pay, benefits, conditions and opportunity that was/is only collective in appearance or by default. Certainly not something that impacts and benefits women as a class. So, our work, our lives, are erased. You have to be a diligent detective to find our herstories.
I’ve been very consistent with my critiques of mainstream feminist movement; one of them was quoted at Racialicious:
“The feminist blogosphere is: young, but not too young (25-35); mostly white (and of northern european extraction); middle to upper-middle class; highly educated (always degreed, usually grad school or law degree); able-bodied and healthy; non-religious (but typically with a Protestant or Jewish background); childfree by choice (also not a caretaker of an elderly or disabled adult); body size from thin to very thin; cisgender; heterosexual; conventionally feminine/pretty; fashionable; not employed in a nontraditional (>25% female participation) workforce; native English speaking (family of origin usually native English speaking also); non-indigenous and several generations removed from immigrant ancestors; raised in a nuclear family (either intact or divorced—but not “unwed” or extended family); lives in a large metropolis; favors capitalism; unmarried/unpartnered (meaning: no formal or legal ties of responsibility to a partner); never incarcerated (no family incarcerated either); and has plenty of personal contact with people in positions of actual power (gets invited to policymaking meetings/summits).”
If I was to rewrite that paragraph today, I’d be more explicit with my inclusion of military women. I was thinking of them in the “nontraditional occupation” category, but (name redacted upon request) has been commenting here a lot, and I’ve been thinking that military women deserve a special mention as they so seldom get it elsewhere. Anyway, that’s one of the things that stands out to me in the feminist blogoshere; that there is relatively little mention of servicepeople and veterans. In my environs, veterans are ubiquitous.
I remain a firm believer that our perspective results from our realities. Feministe has been around the block and then some as one of the representative samples of online feminism’s echo chambers. Has even attempted to make that not so by inviting other bloggers into the fold. It never lasts. Other bloggers leave in anger, frustration and hurt because you can’t add new faces to the same framework and expect the narrow backs of individual women to bear the brunt of changing the culture.
My suggestions for moving forward:
- Adding a declarative mission statement to the blog. Who/what is Feministe, and what are this blog’s objectives? How does it plan to reach them? What is the framework for its evolution? What are its obligations to its readers and/or responsibilities to feminist movement?
- Formulating and posting an open, transparent policy on how consensus is built and conflict handled, designed in such a way as to recognize the inherent evolution of the community and how power is exercised within it.
- A broader range of perspective. This ought to be self-explanatory. But it won’t be successful until and unless….
- Tighten up the comments section. Seriously. All the complaint about the hostility endemic within the commentariat on feminist blogs rings hollow when Feministe has been a place where it thrives. I recommend as your model the comment section at Ta-Nehisi Coates’ blog. Sure, in order to make something like that work at Feministe would result in fewer hits, but it would reap rewards in making the site a more productive one for discussion. If the moderation was heavier, Feministe could be a place where a broader spectrum of voices could thrive.
I’d also suggest a frank acknowledgement that feminism isn’t just a challenge to the power dynamics from without, but to those within as well. It’s a liberatory movement. A revolutionary movement. A movement that will change the way we relate to one another, ourselves, and the planet. Or not—in which case it’s about nothing, and we’ll have to pack up and move on to a movement that will. With or without you.
But make no mistake—you have power. You have opportunity. Whatever else you do, don’t squander it. Pace.




When I first discovered the feminist Internet, I had already been in the military for several years. And I remember we were discussing wife-beating and SO-beating—-the term “domestic violence” makes it sound like domestic terrorism, but not in an honest, serious kind of way—–and there was a…..shift. If it was a civilian guy, nobody was allowed to blame it on anything but him—-no booze, no drugs, no bad childhood, no nothing—no exterior force, in other words. It was a conscious choice, and it was his choice, and that was it.
Except when it came to the Army. Suddenly, it was all the Army’s fault. And when I pointed this out, I got attacked, because I was a service member, and must be brainwashed or something. The concept of working change from within, and being less than 100% pure in thought and deed had apparently never occurred to my supposed allies. It was a cheap shot, and it’s continued.
That lesson stuck with me, and I saw its echoes in the way Schwyzer was treated. Why he was ever admitted to the fold—anti-choice, religious, sucking up to MRAs, slapping down some feminists, ‘crying with rage’ over a woman who dared to do something with her body that he didn’t approve of—-is beyond me.
Thank you for thinking of women like me, who think we can do a job from in the middle of the muddle, and not just from on high.
I have no idea why that is so screwed up. Can you fix it?
[...] This is a brilliantly thoughtful piece by La Lubu on a way forward for Feministe (related to this). There are some tough questions here, but also, some solid suggestions on what can be done to improve big feminist sites like Feministe for the people outside of mainstream power bases. [...]
Pingback by On the ethics of ignoring your power « blue milk | 2012/01/21
Thanks for the compliment. What I hope the post was, is *productive*.
Because y’know, I agree that the comments section is more often than not a hostile place. And it would be impossible for one person to moderate that mess even as a fulltime job. But. It didn’t get that way overnight, and the hostility that garnered Jill’s response was the hostility *in critique of* Feministe. I’m frustrated with the idea that “fuck you” is immediately recognized as hostile, but the sort of “plausibly deniable” snark or irony more typical of white middle-class communication isn’t. That the clear posturing of social rank and power as signifying a more worthy comment isn’t. That the use of reductive stereotypes isn’t. That the blurring of very clear vectors of oppression into one “but we all have our crosses to bear” isn’t. That the use of certain forms of pop culture to separate the “in-crowd” from the “out-crowd” isn’t (don’t get me wrong—nothin’ wrong with lighthearted pop culture postings, but let’s face it: they aren’t diverse; because of that those posts read to me as engineered to portray an image).
The comments section is what it is because the laissez-faire posture towards what-is-appropriate-speech fosters it.
Thank you, to you and Ginmar and everyone else who has been standing up to the bullshit around this. I am the daughter of a man like this Shwizzy, full of the same self-serving narcissistic God-complex bullshit. It took me many years to learn why men like my father (and those who defended him) were to be avoided for my own safety and sanity. I cannot say how painful it is to watch these predators and users be defended and lauded. And then I add in my experiences as a disabled girl and woman and how able-bodied men and women pull exactly the same shit on us. Thank you for your words, for your work, for your rage and fierceness. This Shwizzy’s behaviour, past and present and his many defenders have triggered me terribly – I did not realise how much, until I struggled to even write this comment. Thank you. Thank you
Oh, and I was reading a book last night (couldn’t sleep until I’d finished it), that I think that you and Ginmar both might like: Daughter of the Earth by Agnes Smedley
A brilliant post. Thanks for putting it like this. I was so incoherent with anger at the carry-on in Jill’s Hugo post that I couldn’t say much.
Wow! I agree with every word of this.
So much to co-sign, but the parts I most want to discuss are:
1)Better moderation. There has been some shrugging when this gets mentioned, free speech and all that. IMHO, if you want to have productive conversations, you have to moderate them. Racialicious is heavily modded, likewise Muslimah Media Watch. A blog policy I really like is at Slugger O’Toole: http://sluggerotoole.com/re/comments-policy/, which discusses Northern Irish politics (so you can imagine how contentious things get over there).
But the comments section at Feministe is dreadful and it tends to be some of the “regulars” who are the worst at dishing it out.
I will go further and say that Feministe needs to decide if it’s going to be a woman centred space, because another of my annoyances is that dudes in the comments section have far too much to say for themselves. When I visit Racialicious, I comment very sparingly indeed, because as a white person, I often don’t have anything of value to add and I don’t want to take attention or space away from POC. It’s listening and learning time. I think more men commenting on Feministe would do well to remember that.
2)About the jobs. Even women in “traditional” female occupations don’t feature much in Feministe or elsewhere.
When was the last time you saw a guest post by someone in retail?
When does someone even admit to working in retail in the comments?
The only professions that get talked about ATL or BTL are a)Lawyer (far too often, with far too much showboating about aforementioned job), 2)Some sort of “professional activist”. Especially a hands-clean, paper holding type of activist. So they work for Planned Parenthood, but it’s never emptying the bins 3)Academic/student.
And that is aaaaaalllll. No bus drivers, no secretaries, no nurses, no soldiers, no SAHMs, no shop workers, no factory workers, etc, etc.
You are more likely to see posts and comments on Feministe discussing the working life of a sex worker then any of the above professions and that is very strange considering the far greater numbers of women involved in the professions I’ve listed.
I’m with lubiddu here…and I have inserted a few personal highlights, thus: [...]
“the comments section is more often than not a hostile place [hostility appears to be elevated as 'most hip']…. I’m frustrated with the idea that “fuck you” is immediately recognized as hostile, but the sort of “plausibly deniable” snark or irony more typical of white middle-class communication isn’t [YES!]. That the clear posturing of social rank and power as signifying a more worthy comment isn’t. That the use of reductive stereotypes isn’t. That the blurring of very clear vectors of oppression into one “but we all have our crosses to bear” isn’t [Yes to all the preceding, but especially, the way individual experience so absolutely trumps oppression-analysis as to render oppression-analysis into an insult there. One's failure to let a commenter's personal experience trump oppression-analysis is viewed as 'hostile' in and of itself]. That the use of certain forms of pop culture to separate the “in-crowd” from the “out-crowd” isn’t ” [Yes--thank you for noticing this!].
If you’ve seen any of my comments on various threads there, whatever else you may have garnered otherwise, I want to say that at times I’ve indulged in a kind of comm there that I usually avoid because it’s so repulsive to me–so anti-comm.and so ugly, both. Throughout the few weeks of my reading/commenting there, I’ve taken the pack’s lead where topics of importance to me were concerned–I chose to push back in the same comm-token as is approved/dictated there. First I considered just walking away, because between the often ‘not-so-feminist’ approach to topics by authors, and the trivial/trivializing snark so common, I felt mostly irritated and baffled. I decided instead to give it a whirl, to give back in the common token, for the sake of the exercise on a few topics I care about. And it was an interesting exercise, one that gave me some ‘mean laughs’…but such is not the stuff of my feminist dreams at all.
Otherwise, La Lubu–
Your whole piece was wonderfully well-said. And for me, your words below get to the point best, in terms of my assessment that feministe is NOT a ‘feminist’ site. The very fact that you realize how much those words need to be said–because feministe makes it so obvious in general that they really don’t get feminism–only highlights the reality that it is not a feminist site. I’d like to be wrong, would like to think that words like yours could have as powerful an impact there as feminism needs them to have. Yet I have pretty strong doubts, because the very popularity of the site will stand in the way. It’s very lack of a strong feminist center is what makes it so popular in the first place; and very rare is the person or group that will surrender popularity for the sake of integrity or a greater cause.
“I’d also suggest a frank acknowledgement that feminism isn’t just a challenge to the power dynamics from without, but to those within as well. It’s a liberatory movement. A revolutionary movement. A movement that will change the way we relate to one another, ourselves, and the planet. Or not—in which case it’s about nothing, and we’ll have to pack up and move on to a movement that will. With or without you.”
thanks for putting such careful thought into your analysis of the situation. So refreshing to see.
I can’t bring myself to feel sorry for Ms “But I’m Ill” Jill. She mocked a feministe commenter and then accused them of outright perpetrating the abuse of children in the developing world, because (drum roll) zie was too physically disabled to be able to make or mend their own clothes rather than buying them new.
In the aftermath of the “You fill the cracks” shitstorm, Jill then proceeded to outright mock all marginalized groups by “joking” about how her not liking a certain type of vegetable or animal made her (something like) “carrotist” or having “cat privilege”.
I’ve had enough. I feel like pond scum for simply not being a rich white american.
Delete if you want:
http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2012/01/dead-air-church-30-years.html
I’ll just say, I have never felt more low-class, more hated, more marginalized, than I have during this discussion. If its about women, I think yall missed a few of us, in the way you have disparaged addicts wholesale. And we exist too; OUR discussions about all of this have been taken underground since the message is clear: discussions of drunken behavior are OFF LIMITS, you JUNKIE SWINE!
Got it. I gutted my post in fear, which had been written way back in autumn. But it does mention AA, so if that is off limits, too, the very mention of it, delete the post. Thanks.
No, Daisy…that isn’t the problem. His addiction is not the source of my and others’ anger. His behavior, both before and after sobriety, can be judged separate and apart from his addiction.
I can understand where this comes from a place of pain for you. It comes from a place of pain for me, too. I’m still angry. Most of the time, I can set it aside, on the back burner, where I don’t think I feel it anymore. But then, something like this triggers it—and it flares up again, bright and hot. The concept of forgiveness, as I have experienced it, is merely acquiescence to further mistreatment. Willfully putting yourself in the firing line so the More Important People don’t have to be. I’m not doing that any longer.
Be well.
His fans have been blaming all his actions on drugs. Period. We’re threatening every addict’s recovery if we don’t greet him with open arms and cookies for being such a good boy.
ginmar: “His fans have been blaming all his actions on drugs.”
Yeah–except the one, most powerful and most invisible drug of all–white male privilege. That most potent and deranging drug of all, which–so long as it’s existence continues to be missed/denied by any of his fans and most especially by his recovering-addict fans–will continue to feed his cycle of addiction playing out as narcissism and mysogyny.
Okay, that’s twice.
I am not a “fan”–and you can pull a plug on that shit right now, okay?
I speak for a lot of people when I say we don’t like the language that has been used in this discussion. We are humans and we have the right to speak without being goaded and made fun of for our feelings. I realize addicts are considered human REFUSE and SHIT by everyone here, but we do have opinions and should not be accused of Hugo-fandom simply for expressing them.
Thank you.
Daisy, who called you a Hugo fan here?
Daisy, there are multiple discussions going on. I did not address addiction in either of my posts, let alone refer to addicts as human refuse and shit. My father is (he would say “was”) an addict (alcoholic); he was the first person I vented to about Clarisse’s post. I specifically asked for his perspective as someone who got sober. One of my younger cousins is (she would say “was”—but I fear that she’ll return to using, as she has never been through any kind of counseling or drug treatment or 12-step program) an addict; I don’t think I can name a drug she hasn’t abused. She lost the use of her legs to compartment syndrome when she overdosed on heroin the year before last—and she’s lucky she still has them. Her kidneys were shutting down and her urine was the color of overused motor oil. I spent a lot of time in the hospital with her. When this happened, she was 23.
So. Just as you resent being lumped in with Hugo’s fans, I resent being lumped in with people who randomly say that all addicts are refuse and shit.
I still maintain that not all addicts are the same. I still maintain that what separates my dad and cousin from my ex-husband in terms of being able to recover, is the fact that they have human empathy and my ex-husband was a sociopath. His alcoholism did not make him a sociopath, nor would his sociopathy have left him had he quit.
Some people aren’t capable of treating other people as if they are people instead of objects; that is independent of whether or not they are or have been addicted.
Daisy and Hari you can both give it a rest. This is exactly the type of shit people are objecting to. Hughie’s little fans at Alas have been trying to shout down people with accusations that if we don’t accept his precious little white ass we’re threatening his precious recovery AND that we’re attacking recovery. If you’re pissed off anybody, you might want to get pissed off at this asshole, who’s been blaming all his shitty actions against women as being the fault of booze or pills. But don’t freak out at people who are sick of that excuse.
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2011/12/28/on-change-and-accountability-a-response-to-clarisse-thorn/
I’ve seen HS’s apologists blame his behavior on depression and on addiction. I call BS on both, having dealt with severe depression, and having relatives who are addicts and alcoholics. I’m also sick of the idea that I’m some sort of horrible person for saying that it’s not a bad thing to be held truly accountable for your actions, and that someone who tried to murder his ex-girlfriend isn’t someone who should be a leader in the feminist movement or lecturing anyone about the reality of women’s lives.
ginmar, I have no idea why you’re positioning me with Daisy in your “give it a rest”. You seem to have misunderstood my comment, and perhaps I didn’t state myself clearly enough. Not getting into further explanation, although I will say–Hugo *is* the person my anger is directed at. Otherwise–I’ll ‘give it a rest’, or not, as I choose.
Yeah, you were so fun over at Feministe, whining about the same shit.
ginmar– this is why I’m here right now, and for no other reason–in La lubu’s words to Jill (and to the rest of us):
“I’d also suggest a frank acknowledgement that feminism isn’t just a challenge to the power dynamics from without, but to those within as well. It’s a liberatory movement. A revolutionary movement. A movement that will change the way we relate to one another, ourselves, and the planet. Or not—in which case it’s about nothing,…”
Love this post. There is so much insight here and so much food for thought.
Ginmar, just as I have learned it isn’t nice to say things like “Trained-assassins/military wind-up dolls are evil”–it is not nice to say ALL addicts suck. Some wind-up dolls are evil and some aren’t; some of us suck and some don’t. Some INDIVIDUATION would be nice.
Many FEMALE ADDICTS do not hear this discussion the way you are insisting we should (and of course, you know our feelings better than we do!)… just as if I said “trained assassins are going to burn in hell”–might offend more than just that ONE person I might direct that comment to. See? In trying to hurt ONE person, I hurt many others that I do not intend to hurt. See? This is what has happened in your tarring and feathering of Hugo. The rest of us are now afraid to share publicly.
MANNERS and decency, not so hard to understand. Or so I thought. Some people’s experiences are privileged over others. I am talking about me and other women addicts and how we have heard this discussion, not Hugo. (Not that we count, of course.)
EVERYTHING IS NOT ABOUT FUCKING HUGO.
Ginmar, on the thread you linked, you wrote: Because being high makes attempted murder a character flaw instead of a crime, of course.
Let’s try this on for size:
Because being given a paycheck from the govt makes attempted murder an act of war, instead of the act of a sociopathic mercenary, of course.
Now, how you like them apples?
If you want sympathy/empathy and understanding for what you have experienced, a little sympathy for US might be something to consider. If you are not willing to extend that, do not be surprised that nobody gives a rats ass what YOU went through, okay?
Yes, some of tried to kill people when we were high, just like some people tried to kill people because the govt put a rifle in their hand and told them to, then gave them a check. Amazing, yes. But all true. Let us reason together and try to understand each other, not act as if we are MORALLY SUPERIOR to each other, which we are NOT.
“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”–and that means you and me, Ginmar. You are not **better** than I am.
Daisy–I know you weren’t talking to me, but I want you to know I really really appreciate your last posts. The hugo-situation is extremely triggering for some of us–for different reasons depending on our personal experiences. Being triggered by an abuser–and even moreso by the all the web-brawling over it– can make it harder than usual to see all aspects of things clearly, and keep a firm handle on good will. I’m glad you made the effort to explain your POV and intentions more fully, it goes a long way toward the wish I have, too, of “Let us reason together and try to understand each other….”
Daisy, I’m still really confused about what your points are. This post didn’t address addiction, so while saying that as an addict you felt marginalized by other discussions made sense, the “I expect you to delete me for talking about addiction” bit didn’t. Then you told people to stop calling you a Hugo fan when nobody did.
You keep repeating that addicts have been treated badly in some discussions somewhere, but I can’t parse out what you mean because you haven’t given enough specifics. Except the one specific which is that some people have argued that addiction doesn’t make you try to murder people in and of itself — there has to be something else going on. That’s not a vilification of addicts; it’s a defense of addicts — unless I’m really missing something. So I’m still not following what you’re trying to say at all, nor what you’re trying to say that is about this discussion on this post. Mostly I’m really confused because you seem to be trying to have a discussion here that took place somewhere else, without giving enough context for those of us who showed up because we heard La Lubu’s post was awesome and want to talk about it.
“the way individual experience so absolutely trumps oppression-analysis as to render oppression-analysis into an insult there. One’s failure to let a commenter’s personal experience trump oppression-analysis is viewed as ‘hostile’ in and of itself.”
And I think those of us who actually read that thread know *exactly* what Hari B.’s kind of so-called “oppression analysis” means in terms of disregarding and dismissing the actual lives and experiences of not just one person, but an entire marginalized group of people, simply because they don’t fit her rigid theories. Why am I not surprised that she’s trying to justify herself and present herself as a victim here?
Oh, and Hugo Schwyzer did not commit an extremely gendered and sexualized crime because he was high; he committed it because he’s a raging misogynist and has been all along, as clearly evidenced by his history. Notice that even when he’s not high, he’s still misogynistic in his behavior. Nobody need to waste sympathy and understanding on a bigot.
How do I like them apples? Christ, what are you, 12? For whatever reason, loathsome people—-like you—-have been repeatedly attempting to wrench the conversation from Schwyzer’s abusive and whiny ass to addiction and addicts and forgiveness in general, instead of him specifically. Oh, and fuck your god and your sermon, too. People were shooting at me. If I were you, I’d say you have no excuse for taking drugs unless somebody pointed a gun at you. I don’t know if I’m better than you, but I do know I didn’t bring people with schizophrenia and autism into what should be a discussion about, at most, the crime of trying to kill your girlfriend and then trying to avoid consequences by flailing around for every excuse you can find. And then doing everything you can to avoid the fact that men committing murder suicide is a distinct thing, and that it’s not about addiction if sober men do it, too. Hugo fits right in there, complete with his whining about consequences while suffering absolutely none.
Trying to kill somebody while high is not an excuse, but you know what? Like I said, at least people were shooting at my ass. How does that feel, Deadhead? Not to mention if you want to call every soldier everywhere a psycopathic merc—–thereby implying that we’re all worse than your precious ass because we like to kill and chose a profession to enable us to indulge in that while stone cold sober—— make sure I’m going to remember that, as if I didn’t already know you were an asshole.
I had a big long reply typed out but fuck it. It’s over at my LJ, but seeing as how it’s impossible to argue with people up on their sanctimony pony, I’ll just point out, that addiction’s a lot like parenthood. If you were an asshole before, you’re going to be an asshole during and after, except you have an excuse. Or you think you do. And you yourself just proved that people will bash soldiers and take away any excuse, despite all your bleating about being some blue collar hero. You’ve been waiting a while to use that one, if you haven’t done so already, and I think you have.
You tried to kill people while high? Yeah. That’s….great. Did you drive, too?
People like you—–using these excuses—–are trying to change the subject. There’s the main object: Hugo and his assholishness, and his excuses. His excuses do not have anything to do with anybody else, because we are discussing him. However, various people have attempted to change the subject to: drug addiction and how nobody who ever did drugs is ever responsible for everything, and you’re a horrible person if you don’t coo over people who pull manipulative shit like that, and people who want to talk about forgiveness—-again in general, and who gives a fuck, seriously? This is about Schwyzer. Not about addiction in general or recovery or whatever. Not about forgiveness. None of that.
What’s curious is that the people who seek to change the subject from the specific to the general also have the same few tactics: never ever mention the victim; demand that addiction in general be the only topic, and then scream like hell when people criticize anything. Then follow cries and screams of attacking all addicts, when the addict enablers were the ones who changed the subject to that in the first place.
But the real topper for me is you claiming that people with actual physical defects in their brain chemistry are just as bad as addicts, or that people can claim that for whatever specious reason you came up with. Way to blame the victims there, Deadhead. God, how appropriate.
If people are short tempered with these arguments and addicts, well, all the tactics you’ve used here explain it really well. It’s not about you, it’s not about addiction in general, it’s not about forgiveness in general. It’s about Schwyzer, and how he’s done with so many other men have done, and how that makes so many people so threatened that they want to change the subject to anything in general so they can avoid the fact that he tried to put down his girlfriend like a dog.
Whine and rage all you want, but that’s it.
@La Lubu
Thanks for your contribution to all of this. I always enjoy reading your comments at whatever blog I find them. Please post more!
@Hari B
There are real issues with many of your comments. This ain’t all about the “cool kids” picking on you, or marginalized women “shaming” you. And really, other women are familiar with feminist theory as well; other people read books too. Upthread you said: “One’s failure to let a commenter’s personal experience trump oppression-analysis is viewed as ‘hostile’ in and of itself.” That’s just some bullshit.
Daisy, nobody’s attacking addicts in general, but you are PISSING PEOPLE OFF BY ACCUSING THEM OF THIS.
Jesus fucking Christ already. And you know what else? WHEN PEOPLE SAY THEY’RE TALKING ABOUT HUGO SCHWYZER IT IS ABOUT SCHWYZER.
Christ on a fucking pony.
Nobody has said all addicts suck, so so far you’ve called me a windup doll,a psychopathic merc who accepted a paycheck to blow people away, and fuck only knows what else I might have missed.
You keep accusing people of saying shit they’re not saying. Get a clue. They’re pissed off because you keep changing the subject to YOU, and two, then you accuse of various shit when they don’t respond to being manipulated, insulted, and guilted.
Ginmar, I have kept my involvement on the Hugo follies to a scant minimum, I did not comment on Feministe AT ALL. On NONE of the threads. Zip. And only twice on Alas. If I am pissing people off, they must be going out of their way to get pissed. And in that case, I can’t help them.
They’re pissed off because you keep changing the subject to YOU, and two, then you accuse of various shit when they don’t respond to being manipulated, insulted, and guilted.
Correction:
On a feminist site, I changed the subject from a man to the subject of WOMEN… in this case women addicts and what they feel about the discussion of what someone did when they were all fucked up, and being skinned and eaten alive for it.
By telling me that my opinion does not matter and by constantly shouting me down and telling me (and others) that we should shut up, yes, you say I suck. Do I really have to explain that to you? SAME THING.
Yes, people are saying what they are saying: you said it yourself. Certain actions are “beyond the pale” and “too much”. I read it about 500 times already, from you too, and I quoted you. If certain actions are “too much”–then they are. Too much from Hugo… and too much from others with similar stories to tell. La Lubu and Renee and others have explained fairly well, IMO, why they think “too much” from Hugo is not the same as “too much” from other addicts. You have not. You just keep on repeating it how fucked up such actions are.
And how many addicts have contacted you about this? Of course, you know about 4-5 Google groups have been formed over this whole issue, so how many of these have you been asked to join?
If the answer is NONE and NONE, keep in mind, there is a reason. A whole community feels/has been driven underground. These are WOMEN.
Do you care? Obviously not.
Are we ALL crazy? Well, I guess so.
Silencing feminists who disagree with you, as you are now attempting to silence me, is not the way to handle this.
Hari, thank you.
Oh, for fuck’s sake. What is wrong with you that you don’t see what’s wrong with changing the subject from a woman-abuser to something totally different? Jesus fuckin’ Christ already.
Oh, Wow, the people who make excuses for addicts and storm into conversations to demand that we talk about what YOU want about don’t like me! That’s so….irrelevant.
Silencing you?! Thanks, from a psycopathic hired merc killer wind up doll. Really. YOu won’t even acknowledge the shit you’re pulling here. It’s a great demonstration.
Daisy: “Silencing feminists who disagree with you, as you are now attempting to silence me, is not the way to handle this.”
I completely agree. I think there’s been too much silencing, intended or not, from too many talking about this issue–well beyond you/ginmar from what I’ve seen in various places.
And I hope it doesn’t sound like silencing, but only the observation it’s meant to be–it seems nothing productive is able to occur at this time btwn you and ginmar. I wonder if it might be good for attention to go elsewhere–on the same topic of La Lubu’s post, just not in further opposition btwn 2 people in the convo. I don’t know–obviously it’s for you to decide, not me…I’m just wondering. Sometimes people just have to hash it out, no matter how ugly it has to get. Sometimes it works to step back from someone with whom the heat is just too fierce, and approach a shared topic in another way with other members involved, at least for awhile. I’d like for all of our voices to heard–in a way that might really make a difference. Does this make sense?
Ginmar: If I were you, I’d say you have no excuse for taking drugs unless somebody pointed a gun at you.
I grew up with people pointing guns at me, starting with my own father. Next.
Ginmar, check what I wrote. I do not consider myself any better than you. Are you kidding? Someday, may even tell you why. I understand that you don’t care, but I care about you, I care about feminists. (Sometimes, I really wish I didn’t, but I can’t shed that annoying bad habit.)
To me, there are veterans and then there are FEMINIST VETERANS who get listened to and who have additional insights. I would hope the same is true for you, there are addicts and then there are FEMINIST ADDICTS, and I would like you to think of us as part of the feminist community too.
Can’t there be room for all views? Of addiction also?
But the real topper for me is you claiming that people with actual physical defects in their brain chemistry are just as bad as addicts
Um, you do know that research has shown that many DO have physical defects in our brain chemistry, and some estimate the percentages of addicts w/ undiagnosed bi-polar to be as high as 50%. There are also cannibinoid receptors and opiate receptors and such, and some people have a lot of these, and some have none. (this is why some people really are telling the truth when they say something didn’t make them high). There are many different reasons for addiction, and why some people become addicted to alcohol but not heroin, or meth and not nicotine. Nobody gets addicted to LSD. Genetics is a factor (alcoholism seems nonexistent in certain ethnic Chinese populations, for example) in so many of these cases–like transgender, I am certain than in 2-3 generations, we will know the biological reasons for these differences.
In the meantime, the fact that you even say this, means you do not regard addiction as mental illness. Bingo. This was my whole point: ableism. And it is. As fucked up as Hugo is, as I am, and you still don’t get it? We are fucking looney tunes. It starts BEFORE you pick up, but then when you do, all problems are instantly solved.
Helen, what someone does under the influence has been analyzed in this discussion as if he was, you know, Ted Bundy and thinking on his feet, and it simply wasn’t that way. Put Hugo down all you want, but simply understand that when you say “That’s no excuse!”–as Ginmar proudly has, then you have inhibited honesty from this population. Ginmar intends to do that and as we see here, INTENDS to do that, but I question whether suppressing certain women’s voices is a good thing.
If you don’t want to hear from addicts, okay, then she’s right. If you DO care about women who may be threatened by this discussion, then you will at least consider what I am saying.
On Ginmar’s blog, someone comments:
Except addiction is a self-inflicted disease. One can have the mentality of an addict which leads them to addiction. That in and of itself is a mental disability that needs to be addressed. It is a disability that responds to treatment. However, no one made the addict get addicted. No one sat on their chest and poured the booze down their throat. No one strapped them to a chair and forced them to snort coke. They did that to themselves. While they deserve compassion and help, it is not the same thing.
(shakes head in disbelief)
I was three years old when my family first gave me alcohol. Further, I remember it. It is one of the first, most vivid memories I have. I was drinking my family’s alcohol regularly (with their knowledge) by the time I was 11-12. They were raised the same way, so that was not considered a problem.
My first adventures with amphetamines, I wrote about here: http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2008/01/on-drugs-herbs-antidepressants.html
I was 16, and my mother said I was fat. (And that, as they say, is that.)
In short, I was a legal child when my addictions began. Nobody “forced” me, I guess… but I WAS a child. Further, MANY of us, especially in these days of Ritalin uber alles, Adderall and other drugs, begin this way. (Most addicts these days are LEGAL addicts and the drugs are Oxycontin and other pain meds.)
But this kind of statement is what I mean,… I am called ignorant as somebody tells me what my life was (not) like. (sigh)
Ginmar, that is some livid post you banged out in record time. Yipes. Your anger (at everything) is like a raging nuke next to my little flickering candle of ire, and I have a lot of compassion for you. Being angry at everything, all the time, is no good for you. Like my favorite poet said, it’s life and life only… please try to get a handle on that…it will eat away at your insides, exactly as it did my own father. And for the same reasons, if you get the drift. I am sure my dislike of the military is 95% Freudian.
Namaste. And as Gidget used to say, toodles.
Hari, I hear you. And thanks.
““All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”–and that means you and me, Ginmar. You are not **better** than I am.”
Aside from accusing me of being—what was it again? A psychopathic hired merc trained assassin wind up doll because I won’t toe YOUR line and let you derail YET AGAIN? Big late to whine. And again, if I adopted YOUR way of accusing people of shit, I’d have to follow YET MORE of your logic and say something along the lines of, “You CHOSE to stay there and have guns pointed at you, didn’t you?”
You don’t like it when people don’t play what you think is your game by your rules, which benefit only you. And you really hate it when people call you on it. It’s amazingly like what Schwyzer’s doing. And you criticized him for it.
Good riddance.
Helen, what someone does under the influence has been analyzed in this discussion as if he was, you know, Ted Bundy and thinking on his feet, and it simply wasn’t that way.
Right — if he had simply killed himself while whacked out of his mind, we might feel sorry for him. But since he’s a raging bigot sober or high, he committed a highly gendered and sexualized type of attempted murder. Addiction does not cause bigotry. Sorry, but you’re not going to confuse anyone with a clear mind on that simple distinction.
Correction:
On a feminist site, I changed the subject from a man to the subject of WOMEN…
Correction: On a feminist site, you change the subject away from the topic at hand, which is about women moving forward, to link to and drag up your defense of a specific man. Yeah, I made the mistake of reading your link. I see now why you assumed people would call you a Hugo fan, even though no one had here. So nice of you to give him a platform.
You really didn’t get that, didya? I said, WHAT IF I said that to you?
And see, it made you pretty mad, didn’t it? So you redouble all the statements and insults about how “we did it to ourselves”–and yet no one can say that to you about the choices YOU made. Why? See the double standard?
You excuse yourself for your own choices, but no one else. Why?
Honey, lemme give you a line from AA: Hugo is sleeping like a baby. You are the one who is all tied up in knots and letting anger control you. And for what?
Call me out all you want, if this leads to greater understanding. But if it doesn’t, mere sound and fury signifying nothing.
Good riddance? You might be able to run Hugo out of Blodgonia on a rail, but I am made of much stronger stuff.
Helen, why this hostility? Do I know you?
Addiction causes bigotry? Huh? Keep it simple, I am stupid, remember? I have never said, nor believed this,
My point is simply that the language used in this discussion (as I have said over and over) has been upsetting to many of us. Is there some reason I can’t simply state this without people telling me I do not have the right to my feelings?
Are some people’s feelings more valued than others? Why?
I am speaking for others besides me, or believe me, I wouldn’t. LOL.
I better just leave it alone. I think its pretty clear which way this is going.
To those following along at home: I did my best. I’m out.
Those Google groups are a good idea, I think.
La Lubu, Thank you very much for this post. I’ve read it a few times now, and spent a lot of time thinking about what you say here and how it applies to both the general discussions in online feminism and in my own experiences with it. Thank you for taking the time and energy to spell all of this out.
I would add one other thing to your list of the voices that dominate the feminist blogosphere, and that would be that it’s mostly people who, for whatever reason, don’t worry about blogging under either their actual legal name, or a name that parses as one. This indicates to me people who feel confident they won’t have personal backlash for their views. I know that Amanda Marcotte & Melissa McEwan have both experienced job losses related to their blogging, but they both seem to have landed on their feet. When my friend was fired from his job for expressing a negative opinion publicly about his employer’s recent advertising campaign, he did not. Many of my friends who have children or who live in vulnerable situations or who have “unique” names that easily identify them choose to blog under a pseudonymous, and this means that a lot of what they say can be dismissed because they aren’t willing to put their names to it.
I also wonder, though, as people who primarily blog under their own names, if they say less because of it. I used to blog under my own name and found that I couldn’t talk about some issues in the way I wanted to because of concerns not only about employment, but about personally hurting people close to me. (I have family members who are in the armed forces, for example, and have not felt comfortable talking about sexism in the military.) It’s not that I think that many of these named bloggers don’t care about their family or friends, but I do wonder how much it “gags” them, and also how much the fact that many of them don’t have children is influenced by that.
Again, thank you. I’ve been really thinking about this post since a friend emailed the link to me a few days ago. It’s made me really question what I think the purpose of the online feminist movement is, and how I might want to interact with it in the future.
I thought you were flouncing. You want the ability to be as offensive as you like then blame the other person. Then claim victimization. Nice racket ya got there. So much like Hugo’s. Next time, try and stick the flounce. You’re not even making the medal round.
I still want to know where the addict = murderer thing came into being. Both my grandfathers were alcoholics, my sister is an addict and I have friends who are/ were addicts. None of these people attempted murder, as far as I know.
Ginmar, whatever. Now I have no idea what you are talking about. Flouncing?
O-kay!
My point is simply that the language used in this discussion (as I have said over and over) has been upsetting to many of us.
Then why not just say that? What’s with all the other stuff? The false accusations, the derailing of blog topics, the non-flounce flouncings. (But I’m really loving all the angry shouting at ginmar for expressing anger, because that’s just funny — do you really think you sound calm by comparison? Because you really, really don’t.)
Good point about the different levels of vulnerability.
Bostonian, nobody’s said that. That’s the accusation of a few people when others refuse to accept Hugo’s—and others’—–claims that the drugs made him do it, and therefore he’s not responsible, poor baby.
Yeah, Daisy is the only one who went with junkie/addict = murderer automatically, I just wanted to know where she gets that.
I have seen her do that on several websites now, so I want to know why she went there right away, when no one else did.
Ok, folks…look. I have my blog set up to automatically allow comments from people who have commented before. Please don’t make me change my mind about that and have to moderate each and every comment, because I don’t have the time.
The topic at hand here, or shall I say, as I intended it to be, is about the responsibility that Spokespeople for Feminism have to (a)people who identify as feminist, and (b)all women, including those that don’t I.D. as feminist. I see a striking difference between the *f*eminist treatment of Hugo, and the treatment of other men who have comparable histories (or even not-so-comparable histories—witness the big Michael Moore shutout for simply making the same kind of douchebag comment a lot of dudes made. To my knowledge, Moore has not raped, assaulted, or abused his power with any women). Why is that? From the outside looking in, I suspect it is because Hugo has a lot of connections that can be advantageous to those looking for a boost in a pundit’s career. The same folks willing to boycott Polanski (knowing full well he isn’t going to offer them any career-boosting opportunities) aren’t so willing to extend that to Hugo, who despite very little claim to feminism has already reaped quite a few lucrative benefits. There are still crickets chirping on a good portion of feminist and progressive blogs.
Anyway…..any more sweeping generalizations are going to be disemvowelled. Capisce?
I get the impression that a lot of the crickets and Hugo-support are from people who felt like Hugo has helped them somehow. Which would make sense, because that’s what predators so often do — sweep in and charm all your friends, so that when you find out their horrific nature, no one wants to shut out the charming guy who has offered past favors and dangles the hope of future ones.
I would really love to be wrong about that.
But Moore might have gotten a different response if he linked to everybody’s blogs for a couple of years first.
Helen – I think you are right. Tbh, I can’t believe Amanda Marcotte still gets taken seriously after her various misdeeds, but the way she was defended and why (her career, her lovely career must not be damaged by lesser sorts!) , was a massive warning sign of problems in the feminist blogs.
From the moment some one posted on Feministe that Hugo tried to murder his ex girlfriend, the response from the feminist blogs has been atrocious. That Clarisse (who I could say so much more about, but I shall be a nice guest) thought it was ok to shut down a thread and then do a finger wagging post of chatisement for not being as “open-minded” as she, Caperton’s squeamishness at the idea of banning Hugo, to the big fat fence sit, that is Jill’s comment above. Jill’s said on several occasions that she doesn’t like the comment section at Feministe and this contempt really shows here. Then we have the silence at the other blogs, with the exception of Tiger Beatdown + Womanist Musings.
If you can’t take a stance against someone like Hugo, then who can you stand against. Women used to attack feminist blogs for not representing us, now they don’t even serve us. It’s been said before that they are nothing more then vehicles for career advancement and I think that is sadly the case.
Ginmar – You are so, so right about Make Nice culture. So right.
lubiddu: “The topic at hand here, or shall I say, as I intended it to be, is about the responsibility that Spokespeople for Feminism have to (a)people who identify as feminist, and (b)all women, including those that don’t I.D. as feminist.”
That’s the way I read your post, and it’s why I came here–for that discussion. I salute your courage in posing that topic, one I think is badly needed. But it may be that the very reasons that discussion is so needed, are the same reasons it won’t be allowed–not without your taking time you don’t have to moderate heavily: a) some people are obsessed with Hugo himself, unable as yet to step back for purposes of a broader perspective that might serve feminism and b) some are too pissed off at you and anyone else who challenges the other issues you introduced (e.g., snarky in-group behavior as practiced in places like feministe) to respect the boundaries of the topic *you* introduced in *your* space.
It may be that you have been, like many other insightful people before you, simply too far ahead of your time and too far outside the box, for this particular discussion to happen. Probably at least not before emotions around Hugo have settled. And maybe never, because as far as I can tell, some of the loudest, most frequent posters don’t get your point quoted below–and they don’t think that have to:
“feminism isn’t just a challenge to the power dynamics from without, but to those within as well. It’s a liberatory movement. A revolutionary movement. A movement that will change the way we relate to one another, ourselves, and the planet.”
Thanks for all you’ve said, and your work to see this discussion happen in spite of the resistance to it. As a newbie to the feminist blogosphere recently sampling various sites, feminists with such clear insight and wholly feminist perspective like yours, as quoted above, have been hard to find.
HariB: I’ve been reading the posts and thoughts of the women here and at Feministe for a decade now. We *are* feminism. So, if we are angry, even if we are specifically angry at Hugo Schwyzer, that anger *is* serving feminism. Please don’t come back around here trivializing this anger; it’s not your place to do so. Neither is it your place to delimit how long and to what degree our anger exists. If you are genuinely concerned that some feminists here are specifically angry at “Hugo himself”, do us the favor of doing your homework on the subject. A few quick google searches with any of our names + Hugo’s will reveal all the backstory an earnest new feminist might need.
Another thing: your diction, you choice of words, your choice of shaming tactics, and your choice of what issues you frame in the context of what we desire to frame are highly controlling. Why? Who benefits? Your over the top concern for our/feminism’s moral salvation, for lack of a more accurate term, sets off many alarm bells. My advice? In a thread about an abuser, in a months-long discussion about abuse, discussing an abuser who thought he was clever enough to gaslight us, be careful how you paint yourself.
“An obsession with Hugo”? Yeah, Hari B, why are you here, when you’re using exactly the same kind of language Hugo’s defenders use—-on feminists?
Luba, when you talk about military women, you need to know that Daisy’s attack on me by calling me various kinds of killer to justify her argument, is quite common for military women from women who feel the need to strike an especially vicious blow. It’s a constant thing. Almost nobody objects to it specifically, which says to me that people know shit about what soldiers actually do, aside from the charges we’re mindless killers. And it’s easier to make accusations against: a woman with a job that’s not thought of as feminine, and which people don’t understand, than it is against a known quantity. I can’t count how many times I’ve had some arrogant little burb hipster tell me that I did in fact have choices so I must have chosen to become a hired killer, a baby burner, a sadistic merc—on top of whatever Daisy called me. Choices. Their lives are so full of choices that when confronted with lower class women who have no other way out of two, full-time, $4.24 an hour jobs, they simply cannot believe it. They’ve never faced it. They’re incapable of grasping it. They might write essays and books about the plight of poor women—–but they wouldn’t invite us for dinner because obviously we’re only dumb inarticulate bunnies who’ll grunt instead of talking. They might pity us, but we’re not allowed to argue with Upstairs. Daisy’s in a very big club.
La Lubu, apparently your comment was addressed only to me, since the insults are continuing and you are allowing them.
My question, can I respond honestly to your good friend Ginmar, or will I be banned, moderated, edited? Because I sense a trap here…
I’ve been to this particular rodeo before.
I did not insult you. I said something about your method of attack which you did not like. Rather, you in fact started out by insulting me.
I’m not going to justify the most basic of things to someone who refuses to listen.
Please show me where I started out by blaming people the mentally ill for things they cannot change, or said flat out that soldiers choose to kill or are too stupid ‘wind up mindless doll’ and then whined about it.
You said it.
I’d really like to discuss the actual post, but you keep failing the dismount of your flounce.
Ginmar, waiting for a reply from La Lubu. I don’t want to be banned from her blog. When she gives me her permission and the assurance that I can say whatever I please without being moderated or banned, I will reply to you, but not until.
As I said, I’ve been to this rodeo before.
Ok. Let me be perfectly clear. The moderation system here is set up to allow automatic commenting from people who’ve been here before. The only way for me to change that is to change it to manual moderation of each and every comment. I can do that—but it will make conversation awfully difficult around here, as:
*I am a single parent (translation: all kid transportation, cooking, homework help, etc. is done by Yours Truly)
*I have one full-time and one part-time job (see: single parent)
*I’m pretty active in my Local union, in other labor-oriented stuff, UU stuff, and an immigrant support group that’s just getting off the ground. All of those things take precedent over this blog
So, I’m counting on people to be on the honor system here. If it works, that’s great. If it doesn’t, I’ll switch the commenting to individual moderation, and get to it when I get to it. I’m one person. I am really floored by the number of people who’ve been visiting this little corner of the internet.
Ginmar and Daisy: I believe you two are misunderstanding each other. For what it’s worth, I don’t believe ginmar was specifically referring to you, Daisy, as one of Hugo’s fans. Had I been monitoring this blog during the day (something I don’t usually do; my only internet access is via cellphone during the day, and it’s not 4G so pages load slowly. It’s a huge PITA to access the wordpress dash from my cell, and I fuck things up on the regular trying to manuever with the teeny-tiny parameters on my touchscreen), I would have not allowed several comments from the both of you. Take that as you will—if it makes me a bitch, I’m cool with that.
What I’m not cool with is personal insults from one commenter to another. As we say at the union hall: address the chair, not the floor. Address the issue (big-league spokespeople for feminism and their responsibilities to the rank-and-file and to all women). That’s the conversation I want to have here. Anyone else wanting to host a conversation on forgiveness, redemption, recovery, or any of that is welcome to. That isn’t the topic here.
Once again with a feeling: no more personal insults. Basta. Or…it’s going to get real boring around here, as I’m going to be the only one talking.
Lubu, when you talk about dynamics on posts, you used one of the most irritating tactics yourself just now. There is not implied teaming, equivalency, or ‘both’ between Daisy and I. She came out swinging and called me a hired killer and a bunch of other things. You don’t want to moderate your comments, but if you don’t put the hammer down on crap like that right away—-after you mentioned just that shit in the post then you’re basically telling people like me who get attacked with that crap to just shut up and deal with it. Or be silent. Or let it go. Or just get over it. Whatever the phrase is. People like to use that crap on soldiers, and it’s about as sadistic as you can get, especially when it’s a double whammy like that, when you’re a soldier and you have PTSD, and you have never done the shit they’re accusing you of. So if that’s going to be the standard here, thank you, but I won’t be playing those same old games here.
And if you want to know why people are so angry about the feminist blogosphere, that kind of ‘both of you need to behave’ shit is pretty textbook. Daisy came out swinging by making accusations from other conversations and accusing people her of calling her a Hugo fan. Nobody has. Then she followed up by complaining of being ‘goaded’ and whipped out the first of her ‘hired assassin trained killer’ remarks.
If you want to talk dynamics, there it is, right there. Attacking somebody and then disciplining the person on the receiving end when they fight back. When you equalize that kind of crap, it lets one person off the hook and heaps the other with blame. But if you expect people to tolerate insults because you won’t moderate, how is this place any different from anywhere else on the web?
No insults, got it, just the facts.
For those following along at home, here is the background: I first met Ginmar when she made a hobby of insulting everyone on the Ms. boards, which is where I first encountered her in (?) 03-04–something like that. She zealously insulted any and every anti-war person on the forum, including me. She was dogged and unrelenting, as she is now. (I would say, verbally abusive.)
Ginmar charged into a peaceful discussion and called me all kinds of names, then began hammering me with similarly nasty IMs. (And Ginmar, this was when I used the name “Scarlet Begonias”–remember now? Or are you so casually cruel ALL the time, that you can’t even recall the specific names of victims you have blasted with your countless vicious verbal grenades?) Several other Ms-denizens immediately jumped in and privately informed me of Ginmar’s, umm, anger-management issues. I really have tried hard to avoid her ever since, with the exception of the few times I took the bait (like now).
Ginmar is the ONLY feminist I have ever banned from my blog, and I actually found it necessary to ban her IP because she would not stop serially-posting while intoxicated and incoherent. (Of course, I have never posted on HER blog, nor would I.)
So, please understand: this has been going on for a while now… like A WHOLE DECADE. And no, it was NOT started by me. This particular attack has nothing to do with Hugo, and everything to do with settling very old scores.
No more discussion of Hugo from me, until Hugogate dies down. Yeesh. But Ginmar’s extrended temper tantrum here –prompting her to write a rather alarming, stalkerish 3537-word blog post about me (!) .. and even a second post now..(!)– has nothing to do with any of that and never has. This is an old feud, and she resurrects it once a year or so.
Namaste, yall.
I have no idea what you are talking about, nor who you are or claim to be from a decade ago. It would have been impossible for you to encounter me on the Ms. Boards from 2003 to 2004 because I was in Iraq for all of 2004, and the Ms. Boards shut down years earlier. As for her remarks, you can judge for yourself as to the accuracy of her perceptions in her earlier accusations against people who dare to criticize her opinions. Of course, we have only Daisy’s word for this, as the Ms.Boards are long gone.
I haven’t spoken to you in years till this, and the ‘temper tantrum’ as you call it consists mostly of your quotes and your words. You are quite the most obsessed and delusional person I have ever encountered, and fling accusations about like a spoiled child discarding unacceptable toys. It’s glaringly apparent that the person who has some kind of grudge here is not me.
Lubu, this is not a safe place if you allow this poster to continue her attacks. I’m done.
Seriously, Daisy? You just called ginmar a drunk/addict (as a slur) in a thread in which the only reason you show up is b/c you don’t like people doing that?
Seriously?
That’s, um, weird.
And, um, some of us have been around long enough to have read gin *before* she was going off to war. Or at least they were early, early, days at war.
There are very few women or feminists for whom I would lay down everything I got, but both Ginmar and LaLubu fall into that camp. Don’t even go there. It’s not worth your time.
Shit, I can’t even begin to tell you what Gin’s narrative about war did for me as a woman and as a citizen. So, yeah, back off, okay? Your story sucks, as does mine. We all have shit to carry. But woman? You’ve been sober longer than I’ve been using, and I still can’t come up with some of the bullshit you came up with upthread. This isn’t about you. Or addicts. Or drunks.
It’s about a man who claims to be an addict, but who is a verified abuser. None of us know if he actually is an addict. All we have is his word. And more than anything else, his word verifies that he is an abuser. Very little of what he says actually rings true if he were an addict. But maybe you missed that.
lubiddu: “The topic at hand here… as I intended it to be, is about the responsibility that Spokespeople for Feminism have to (a) people who identify as feminist, and (b) all women, including those that don’t I.D. as feminist.”
So, no, Q Grrl/others, *here*, on this page, it’s really NOT “about a man who claims to be an addict, but who is a verified abuser.” It’s also not about me–or you.
As I read libuddu, her topic springs from the actions of HS, but goes beyond him now. It’s about feminist understanding of, and response to, HS/his ilk. Libuddu’s topic is about us: some, as ‘feminist spokespeople’ with a responsibility to a ‘constituency’; the rest of us a ‘feminist constituency’ with some right to expect spokespeople to act with respect for the responsibilities of leadership. Libuddu…am I on the right track?
libuddu: “no more personal insults.” Just want to repeat this for emphasis, out of regard for libuddu’s right to choose boundaries here, and b/c personal attacks don’t. move. conversations. forward.
The only personal remark I’ll address is about my being an ‘earnest new feminist’. That fit me through the 1970s, when I took action to change sexist school dress codes and became a feminist whistle-blower otherwise. Feminism has been a primary focus of my life ever since, personally and politically. I’m here to discuss feminist issues at large, as a veteran feminist. That some don’t like my choice not to take cues from the femiweb about ‘how to discuss’, is a personal issue having nothing to do with my level of feminist understanding or engagement. I respect people’s feelings, and their needs to argue feelings with other individuals—when people conduct those convos in appopriate settings. Here, libuddu has determined both the topic and appropriate manner of discussion–not me.
With this in mind, it’s be great to see others respond to libuddu’s chosen topic, with respect for her stated discussion guidelines–a topic of far greater value to feminism, to feminists and all womyn, than the likes of HS could possibly ever be.
Hari, thats because La Lubu has —*CLASS AWARENESS* –and we need to give this in a serum-based vaccine to ALL of the feminist bloggers.
Here is the piece I refer to… notice he used to say it was ACCIDENTAL:
http://studentactivism.net/2012/01/07/was-hugo-schwyzers-confession-embellished/
So which is the real Hugo?
Daisy–um, not really sure I get you entirely…but that’s ok. I’m going to take your wink as a sign of good will…or at least not of ill will. That’s good enough to be getting on with!
I’m inclined to believe it’s the truth. My abuser was stauchly defended by a lot of folks; folks who thought it was *even better* when he admitted his abuse, because they viewed that as evidence that he was “really sorry” and “ready to change.” They also downplayed his abuse because I was “tough” and “could handle it” (he only outweighed me by 100 pounds, eyeroll). After he admitted he abused? And told his sob story? I was then seen as the real problem—the unforgiving bitch who wouldn’t give the poor guy a “second” (translation: umpteenth) chance. I was almost the victim of one of those murder-suicides, except I did not believe him when he claimed he intended to kill me first and then himself. I believe his intent was to stab me to death in my sleep, then leave (he was wearing a ninja uniform when he broke into my apartment, and had camoflage paint on his face. He had a few knives. He didn’t expect me to be awake and fighting back is all).
So, I don’t see the absence of testimony of the victim as indicative of anything expect a desire to not be further victimized by having her credibility questioned. She’s already had enough of that. Also: she was also an addict. Women addicts don’t get the same treatment.
But if it isn’t true? If it’s all made up? Immaterial to me. This is still not a person who has any business being a spokesperson for any movement I care to be involved in.
“But if it isn’t true?,,,This is still not a person who has any business being a spokesperson for any movement I care to be involved in.”
Exactly. I really don’t get how a man got to be important in feminism in the way he did.
And as far as the ‘truth’ of the story goes, what is true enough for me is all his capitalizing upon the events, the point of pornifying his account/s of things for viewing value (“we had desperately hot sex” [before he decided to kill them both]??? Jaysus. That in itself shows me precisely what kind of man he is. That is the part that speaks the unvarnished truth, regardless of the shifting accounts and ‘mea culpa’ attitude.
Lubu, please remove mention of me from your post. If you’re not going to practice what you preach, I do not want to be a part of it.
ginmar, I have not allowed further comments of that nature since switching to the individual comment-approval method. I am practicing what I preach.
I asked you to remove me from this post. You used bullshit ‘both’ language and did exactly what you criticized Jill for. YOu should have slapped her down the minute she compared my service to her bullshit. Remove me from your post. You would think of all things that a feminist would understand the meaning of consent.
I do not consent. The damage has already been done and you have not made any efforts to fix it. Remove me.
I’m sorry, ginmar. I didn’t remove your name from the post because…it didn’t make any sense to me to have your name out of the post but still in the comments. But it’s not my call. You name is now out of the post. I’m sorry for being an asshole. I should have done it immediately.
On the “both” language—you and Daisy are both working-class women. You are similarly situated in regards to how much value you have in the eyes of those in power. Neither one of you has institutional power over the other. I think that’s a whole lot different than one person using structural power to put another down. Those in power want those of us without to go at each others’ throats to break any possibility of solidarity—of reaching an understanding, of recognizing and changing wrongs we commit(ted) against one another, of forming alliances and ways of communicating with one another, of handling conflict effectively and productively.
When I talk about handling conflict effectively, I’m not talking about “making nice” or sweeping things under the rug. I’m talking about getting shit out in the open, but respecting the other person while doing so. And I’m not talking about extending that attitude towards our enemies. Fuck them. I’m talking about having structures in place, both formal and informal, to serve as a guide while we work our way to mutual respect and understanding to get shit done. We have those structures at my union hall. I never served, but I suppose you have those structures in the military as well. In-house means for handling in-house problems.
And we don’t have that within feminism. We don’t even have an informal institution of working-class feminism.
(And don’t get me wrong; each person is not going to be able to work with each other person; that’s unrealistic. But within institutional feminism we don’t have means for resolving conflict. What we have within institutional feminism is the replication of the status quo in the larger oppressive society. And for us working class feminists, it amounts to either invisibility or “sittdown and shuddup.”)
Anyway. Jill’s made her choice; she isn’t going to take even the minimal stand of permanently banning Mr. “Feminist” Douchebag. There may or may not be further posts here critiquing Feministe; but such further posts will not be directed toward “WTF, Feministe? Clean-up on aisle five!” ‘cuz that ship sailed a long time ago. A few years ago, matter of fact. I just thought as a long-time commentor I’d throw my two cents in just for shits and grins. I didn’t expect my words to make a difference there.
The weather’s getting warmer here (we had a mild winter—can’t complain), and I’ve got a lot of work to do on the house (painting–interior and exterior, rewiring lighting in the ceiling (which I’d been putting off because PITA), putting in a garden….that sort of thing). Summertime I’m going to make a real effort to take some mini-vacations. Get on the road and do some bluesfest weekends, or mountain biking, that sort of thing. I’ve fallen into the trap my mother had of always putting that stuff off—”I’ll do it when….” Yeah. She’s in the ground now. I don’t want that to be me….always having the time for misery, and never having the time for sustenance.
Be well.